Tuesday, 16 November 2010

Q1 results – running very hard to pay the going rate


Red Football Limited's Q1 results (3 months to 30th September 2010) were published today. They are available on www.mufplc.com.

No information was given on the reported PIK redemption other than confirmation that no dividend has been paid out of the club. A Glazer family spokesman has told the BBC that no equity stake has been sold in the club. We are thus left with a total mystery as to where the money to redeem the PIKs has come from. A refinancing would seem the most likely route, but neither the club nor the Glazers seem minded to tell us anything.

These were not exciting figures and mainly confirm the trends we saw in the full year results.


Income

Matchday income was up very marginally (0.6%). This reflects one fewer home game this quarter (drawn away in the Carling Cup), offset by higher tour income. Tour income is not split out separately from home games but a back of the envelope calculation suggests it is around £6m. The club is still generally selling out home games (Wolves in the Carling Cup being the exception), but it is clearly a struggle with local newspaper adverts for home games now a common feature.

In media income, United benefitted from the new three year PL deal which began this season. Whilst domestic rights growth was low, the overseas rights bonanza added around £1.5m. This offset the £1.6m fall in CL media income (the "market pool" element) due to United coming second in the PL last season.
Commercial revenue was again the star rising 25%. This is the first quarter to included the Aon deal (worth around £1.5m more per quarter, although this extra cash was pre-paid in 2009). The growth on last year also reflects all the smaller deals done during last season (Concha Y Toro, Smirnoff, Turkish Airlines etc).

In total, revenue rose 9.8%. The profit on player sales was only £2m vs. £6m last year as Possebon, Cathcart and Tosic left.


Costs
On the cost side, I have to say the rise in salaries at 14.8% is totally staggering. Last year wages rose 7% so this doubling reflects a huge acceleration in wage increases. Note, these figures do not include Rooney's pay rise! Salary inflation shows no sign of slowing down in the run up to UEFA's Financial Fair Play rules coming in. Other costs rose 5% year on year. In total, costs rose 12%, ahead of the rate of growth in revenue.


Interest, debt and cash

The interest charge was £12.2m. This is one quarter of the bond interest paid annually. Actual cash interest paid was £22.7m (the bond payments are in February and August) and probably includes c. £1.6m in swap losses. The £26m of swop losses not paid last year are being paid over the next four years but we do not have the exact payment dates.

Gross debt (including MUTV and the Alderley mortgage) is reported at £509.4m (down from £522m at the year end). This fall is due to the strengthening of £ vs. the US$ during the quarter. The gross debt figure does not include the unamortised issue discount and financing fees of c. £22m. Total debt repayable is therefore c. £531m.

The cash balance fell £12.1m since 30th June to £151.7m. This seasonal fall is normal for the club. There was an explained inflow from working capital of £6.6m which limited the fall in cash.


Conclusion

These figures show United running very hard to keep up with quite extraordinary wage pressures. So far the commercial growth is delivering, which is essential as there is little growth in Matchday or Media to compensate.

These figures cast no light on the refinancing or redemption of the PIKs. The silence from the Glazer family and the club on this issue is a disgrace. If all is good, tell us the details please.

LUHG

74 comments:

Anonymous said...

Details as you want Anders: Take care of your house first, learn a bit about how business financing works, do some creative thinking instead of small thinking and you will be amazed at what you will find out.

Come all of you, start your baaaaing and meeeeehing, I want me some mutton kebabs

Anonymous said...

How much has been paid on the interest of these debts in the last 5 years?

Anonymous said...

Enough interest has been paid, yes and how much of a nuisance were you when you were young?

Anonymous said...

My only question is: what was the point of paying off the £220 million debt other than the obvious point of clearing it? Whats the ulterior motive? There is obviously one and thats all I want to know.

Anonymous said...

Can the Glazers still take a 1 time 75m pounds cashout?

red.i.am said...

Im surprised people are wondering where the Glazer's got the money to pay off the pik - Forbes shows the tampa bucaneers as the 4th most profitable team in the NFL earning almost £40 million each year and as Andersred has previously reported - they sold their Zapata stock and a house for £65million last year - and this is just the stuff that is public - rich families like the Glazer's always have a few assets hidden away

Anonymous said...

Surely there will be some sort of leak as to where this cash has come from at some point in the coming weeks.

Anders, surely someone in your field will get some information about it?

Also can the gimps keep this information private? Won't it all come out in the wash at some point soon in terms of having to report figures?

Maybe if someone scrutinises their dealings then we can make some educated guesses on where the cash has come from?

Anonymous said...

Also these people in the press need to grow a set of balls and start asking Glazer stooge number 2, Fergie, what the hell is happening.

He will be too busy counting the contents of his dirty glazer wage packet.

Shop steward my arse

Anonymous said...

The Glazers clearly got spooked by what happened to Hicks and Gillett at Liverpool. The last thing they want is to be forced out of Man Utd so it appears they came up with 2 clever plans to ensure they didn't get John Henry'd.

Plan A was to borrow £220m and pay off the outstanding PIKs. Because of the nature of the PIKs if not settled the holders of this debt could possibly be in a position to seize shares in RFJV and thus take over United ala RBS. Not what the Glazers wanted.

If that failed Plan B was likely to start buying up the United bonds using their dividend from the club. If all the bonds are bought up by a single person that person could force a change of ownership at the club. If the Glazers got hold of all the bonds they could ensure even if they didnt settle the PIKs they wouldn't be able to be forced out. This is, I'd assume, why they asked the PIK holders for permission to take money outta the club. It was cos they didnt know if they'd get the finance they wanted.

As it happens it looks like Plan A succeeded. The Glazers got the finance they wanted and will settle the PIKs. Assuming the rate of interest on this new loan is around 8% they could pay this by taking c.£17-18m of the annual dividend they're entitled to from United and I'd guess that is what will happen based upon the fact they showed no qualms about potentially using United's money to dip into the bond market.

Once again we are left with United paying for itself instead of the Glazers...

...Its sickening but at the same time truly ingenious.

Anonymous said...

"These figures cast no light on the refinancing or redemption of the PIKs. The silence from the Glazer family and the club on this issue is a disgrace. If all is good, tell us the details please."

Anders, I think we need to get a little perspective on this - my question to you is why should a PRIVATELY OWNED company have to explain every business decision they make to the general public, including to individuals like yourself. Imagine if you owned your own company and an outsider asked intrusive questions into all aspects of your business. Would you really tell them everything? By telling people about everything you are doing or are planning on doing, could this not prejudice your company in the long run?

Look, I am no supporter of the Glazers, but I think these outbursts really need to be tempered somewhat. You are coming across angry and bitter due to the fact Gill or the Glazers won't reveal how it has all been arranged.

Apart from the above, I would still commend your blog for excellent analysis of the results.

Best regards,

Greville

Diem said...

"If that failed Plan B was likely to start buying up the United bonds using their dividend from the club. If all the bonds are bought up by a single person that person could force a change of ownership at the club. "

Not true - holding all the bonds would just mean that you were entitled to their repayment, and could perhaps influence any rolling over of the debt into new bonds (in the absence of any other market investors).

Bonds otherwise hold no voting or decision rights in the company. The only way they would is if the company went into administration and the creditors converted the outstanding bonds into equity stakes - which would not achieve anything in your scenario as they are the only shareholders already.

Anonymous said...

Hehehe Diem, hehehe glad you hit the ball out of the park.

To the rest, can you continue baaaaaing and meeeeeehing. Need me some mutton kebabs. Anders Shepherd please lead the sheep into slaughter house nigely fattened up.

ja said...

Greville,
No as a private company they dont have to explain anything. But it is about PR. The United brand, built up over decades, is becoming increasingly toxic to many of its 'customers' or supporters. If this is just seen as another cunning accounting sleight of hand, that instead of taking the Ronaldo and other money straight off to pay the PIKs, they are repacked via another loan and paid off more gradually via club funds, the end result will be the same - the PIKs being paid off by United, not 'nothing to do with the club' as alleged by Gill.
There was a big exodus of 'customers' in 2005, me included, and a continuous flow away since, including Anders last summer. Now there are no waiting lists, apart from the big games, OT is rarely sold out, and instead of big headline signings like Rooney, RVN, Veron, Ferdinand, etc, the club is signing total unknowns like Bebe who are far from being ready to go into the 1st team on a weekly basis. Gill talks about the United way of nurturing talent and namechecks the Busby babes. Well, Busby leavened his babes with big buys like Taylor and Gregg and later with Denis Law, Crerand etc.The Fergie youth generation had big buys like Keane, Pallister, Cole and Yorke, Stam etc. Gill treats the 'customers' like fools. The Glazers say nothing. One day they will wake up with their worldwide fan base who claim allegiance while wearing a knockoff shirt in a bar in Beijing, Lagos or wherever, while the people of Manchester go off to FC, or the younger generation to Eastlands, with OT part filled with away days once in a lifetime visitors with their megastore bags.
As for the clumsy fingered anonymous kebab man, not sure how his sheep comments work, once you stop going to OT you stop being sheared by the Glazers however 'nigely' you might look.

Anonymous said...

Ja,

To take some of your comments:

1. "But it is about PR" - I get the impression that no matter what the Glazers or Gill say will placate the disaffected supporters including MUST. Even if Gill or the Glazers came out to say that the PIKs were all paid off using their own money (perhaps by selling off some of their real estate assets), this would still not get people off their backs.

2. "OT is rarely sold out" - incorrect. Only one game this season has not sold out, and that was only a Carling Cup game against Wolves. I think the attendances are holding up remarkably well given the anger towards the Glazers, as well as the economic mess this country currently finds itself in.

3. "The Fergie youth generation had big buys like Keane, Pallister, Cole and Yorke, Stam etc" - I think you will find the Glazer era has had similar big buys - how about Berbatov, Nani, Andersen, Carrick, Hargreaves, Valencia? Whatever you may think of these players talent wise, they are big buys.

4. "the club is signing total unknowns like Bebe who are far from being ready to go into the 1st team on a weekly basis" - was Ronaldo a well known player when he signed? I would venture hardly any supporter had heard of him. I'm not saying that Bebe will be the next Ronaldo, but your comments come across as disparaging to SAF and the young players at the club. SAF is one of the very few managers in the PL who gives youth a chance, and that has historically helped shaped the success for the club. I fully expect that some of the current crop will prove to be fine players for United, but they must be given a chance.

Regards,

Greville.

Anonymous said...

Don't give us that rubbish about crowds great for recession nonsense - pretty much every club's crowds are up in the premiership and most of United's gates have been 2-3,000 shy of capacity and Bursa was 15,000 down. Spurs have waiting lists for their season tickets which would take their crowds to 70,000. Arsenal also have similar waiting lists.

As for big buys I actually agree with Fergie on this - mainly because I prefer to see the youngsters coming through although I expect to see us spend big on a keeper and possibly an attacking midfielder and a back-up at left back. They don't always come through. Mind you I don't classify Carrick or Valencia as a big buy in the class of Rio and Keane in the current market - only Berba qualifies in the Glazer era and nett expenditure is way down.

That said I WOULD like to see investment in the club in other ways if they are not spending on players (nett) - lower ticket prices, stadium expansion (maybe not needed now but it would look better).

Finally PR is ALL important in a business where so much is about an association that is so much more than good business to its fans. And the Glazers have not done well so far and they have damage to repair.

Anonymous said...

Anonymous wrote "Don't give us that rubbish about crowds great for recession nonsense - pretty much every club's crowds are up in the premiership and most of United's gates have been 2-3,000 shy of capacity and Bursa was 15,000 down."

Please can you get your facts right, most of the gates have not been 2-3,000 shy of capacity. United's gates this season in the Premier League have averaged 75,213 (OT's official capacity being 75,769). Therefore OT has been 99.2% full, which I think is fair to say is pretty much a sell out. Don't believe me? Then check this website:

http://itv.stats.football365.com/dom/ENG/PR/attend.html

As for the Bursaspor game the attendance was not down by 15,000. The attendance was 72,610 (hardly a disaster). Evidence here:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/europe/9102208.stm

Before trying to rubbish me I would kindly suggest you should check your statements before posting.

Best regards,

Greville.

ja said...

Greville,
1. I disagree. If, say, the Glazers sold the Bucs and used that money to clear the debts, that would have a huge affect. The lack of transparency is a breeding ground for discontent. Apart from one interview with MU pravda TV, no Glazer has been interviewed. Gill only talks to non-financial people, DJs and the like. Why give an interview to some obscure (to a Brit audience) radio channel as yesterday rather than to a proper financial journalist if they have nothing to hide.
2. Ticket sales at OT. Who controls the statistics released to the media? Yes the Glazers. Casual observation suggests there are plenty of empty seats except for the big games as does the increased media spend on selling tickets.
3. "Big" buys. SAF was on record of saying that he always looked to 'freshen up' the squad with a couple fo signings each year to keep the squad evolving and everyone on their toes. That is no longer the case and it is always sell to buy first.
4. Ronaldo did more or less go straight into the team. He was not an unknown and he was a big buy at 12m. All the top teams were looking at him. Bebe was a total unknown, even SAF had never heard of him or seen him play.
I resent your allegation that my remarks are 'disparaging to the young players at the club'. I am not criticising or disparaging kids at United but any top team is a mix of promising youth and proven players. The Busby babes included big buys like Berry, Taylor and Gregg. In the 60s Law, Crerand, Herd, Morgan etc. Possibly the perfect team was the 67 Celtic team where they all came from wihtin a short radius of Glasgow. That is unlikely ever to happen again.

andersred said...

Some replies!

@Anonymous at 15.52 yesterday
What are you talking about?

@Anonymous at 15.59 yesterday
Total Red Football cash interest up to 30th September 2010 is £229.3m. Swap costs and banking fees total another £93.7m.

@Anonymous at 16.23 yesterday
The Glazers can still take out £95m at any time they wish and have an additional ongoing right to 50% of EBITDA less bond interest (around £28m pa).

@red.i.am
Forbes estimate the Bucs EBITDA. They also estimate they have debt of $140m. The post interest but pre-tax income would be around £30m pa. The house was mortgaged. Zapata brought in c. £45m. They are propping up loss making malls with their own capital. I can’t get to £243m to pay the PIKs.

@Anonymous at 18.37 yesterday
We will be able to see the details of any refinancing IF it has taken place in one of the UK companies (Red Football Joint Venture Ltd or Red Football Shareholder Ltd). It will be a “post balance sheet event” note in the accounts published in the new year. If there has been a refinancing in the US we will never see it.

more to follow....

andersred said...

@Greville
I know it’s a privately owned company, but it is also a major sporting and cultural institution. So far the Glazers’ ownership has cost over £300m in cash costs to the club, by the time of maturity in 2017 the bonds will have cost another £293m in interest and there are rights embedded in the bond document that allow c. £300m to be paid in dividends on top. I think these costs should be discussed with supporters who are not merely customers as in most businesses.

You clearly disagree.

Incidentally, I’m not angry or bitter that Gill won’t reveal how it has all been arranged. I don’t think they’ve told him either....

@Various Anonymous and ja
The ground is selling out this season but only just for all but the big games. The value of a season ticket has been severely eroded. There are some many STs that the chances of getting an away ticket (ex-Blackburn) are slim to none outside the loyalty pot and execs. STs have been demonstrated not to guarantee cup final tickets. They come with the lovely ACS attached.

There is clearly no ST waiting list in the sense that a normal person would use the phrase. I imagine there was a large exodus of non-renewers last season who have been replaced by One United members who had previously got to as many matches as they could. These people no longer need apply as members hence the large number of games on general sale. Plus the football has been poor this season (Rangers anyone?) Matchday income has peaked and it will take something pretty special to get it moving from here....

anders

Anonymous said...

Anders, thank you for looking into our messages. Just to take you up on a few of your points:

"...I think these costs should be discussed with supporters who are not merely customers as in most businesses."
- and risk antagonising more people and ultimately destablising the club and team? What benefit will discussing this bring? People have already made up their minds, you included. As the Glazer's may be here for the long haul, I think it is time that we park the Glazer issue to one side and get behind the team.

"Forbes estimate the Bucs EBITDA. They also estimate they have debt of $140m. The post interest but pre-tax income would be around £30m pa. The house was mortgaged. Zapata brought in c. £45m. They are propping up loss making malls with their own capital. I can’t get to £243m to pay the PIKs."
- as you will be aware, their American business interests are somewhat shrowded in mystery as the local state law of where their business is domiciled does not make them have to put much information in the public domain. Therefore I believe it is entirely conceivable they have managed to raise the the PIK repayment amount (or a substantial part of it, leveraging the remaining part against one their other businesses). Interesting you are quoting Forbes as a sources, when you heavily criticised Forbes regarding their Rich List profile on the Glazers in your 23 September 2010 article.

"Incidentally, I’m not angry or bitter that Gill won’t reveal how it has all been arranged. I don’t think they’ve told him either...."
- If you believe Gill does not know how the PIK repayment has been arranged, then why get on Gill and the club's back demanding answers? Gill has always maintained that the PIK is with the Glazer family to sort out, and has nothing to do with Man Utd.

Best regards,
Greville.

Darren said...

The increase in wage bill was a bit of a surprise. Wasn't expecting that. Rooneys new deal will add another £3m to the bill I suppose, and new contracts for Evra, Carrick & the stragglers like O'Shea to come? Looks like that wages to turnover ratio will be heading towards 60% in the next year or two. There'll be a lot of clubs sweating on the next TV deals in 2013.

Anonymous said...

Greville,
You amuse me. Thousands of empty seats every game. To quote the stats you do is laughable. Anyone in the ground can see the gaps in the upper tiers.
Maybe your TV doesn;t have a godo quality picture.

jesper olsen on teh wing said...

Telegraph speculating the refinance cash may have come from Springfield:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/comment/citydiary/8141369/Manchester-United-gets-Springfield-cash.html

Anonymous said...

Re: Alleged thousands of empty seats at Old Trafford every game - If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it.

Anonymous said...

I think one of the most galling things about this whole sorry affair is the lack of communication from the owners.

However if you had the misfortune to look like a bunch of lizards then I guess you wouldn't come out in public that often.

One thing that can't be disputed is these horrible people have completely thrown everything at the club into disarray and a lot of real supporters are really starting to despise everything about United, lads who have sweated blood and tears for United. More and more are distancing themselves from the club and will never return and once the glory days have gone and the jester hatted fuckwits no longer frequent OT there will be a massive hole which will be hard to fill. All because of the glazers.

And that my friends is more heartbreaking than any amount of debt

Anonymous said...

Anders shepherd,

How about you tell the sheep of your vested interests, your paymasters suspect strategy, your diminishing moral/ethical sense and we communicate where the funds came from.

Regards
Jo

PS: Or you can repeat the lie you don't know what I'm referring to relating to your vested interests, etc

Anonymous said...

Doom and Gloom All the time with You Mr Green,Your views have been Proven Wrong again,not one penny of the Clubs money has been used to Pay Off those PIKs,The debt issue is Totally under Control and Indeed the Loss that you have reported in recent weeks was full of One Off issues that will never be recorded on the Books again.Its time Mr Green that you and your Crowd started telling the Fans the Whole truth and Not just one with your agenda all over it.State the Facts Mr Green and Leave the Bullshit and Lies to the News of the World and Other sub standard papers who are always having a go at Us.
Will you Now at Least Come Out and Publically say that You have been Proven Wrong in your Views regarding the PIks in the same way you have spoken to the media about your Friends in the Red Knights.
Cut the Bullshit NoW Mr Green and Tell the Truth,You and Your Kind have led Enough Fans away from Our Club.

A Concerned Fan

David said...

So, the mutton kebab eater thinks it's ok that the Glazers have at last managed to pay something off the debt, in 5 years, the debt has climbed from £0 to £670 Million (ish), and they now announce that they are going to pay off the PIK's. Am I correct in thinking that they have had around £250 Million + out of the club in the last 5 years in dividends, loans etc, if so, are they not repaying the PIK's with United money? (they are still entitled to draw £90 odd million this year). The reason why a lot of us are looking for new "grass to feed off" is still the same, we dont like the fact that they borrowed the cash to buy MUFC and then got ALL their money back by making the club responsible for their debt, as I've said before, a brilliant piece of business (for them). People keep harping on about how they have made United great(er)and the ground is still full for every game, United are not in a better position due to the Glazers and the ground isnt full for every game, (statistics can lie Grenville). The sqaud are ageing and some of the replacements are sadly not good enough, I have had today an unsubscribed email from Webmaster@manutd.com informing that today is my last chance to buy tickets for the Wigan game. Someone please tell me, pre Glazer era, the last time league match tickets were on "open sale" I'll bet it was a bloody long time ago. I, like everyone else have read a lot about the Glazers and have also read what other posters opinions are, and have in the past stated that everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but I cannot for the life of me understand how anyone can think that MUFC, under the Glazer ownership have prospered. Time for breakfast and the grass is wet!!

LUHG

Anonymous said...

@Jo. Keep up the bleating. We certainly aren't gonna get consideed argument from you.

For all those glazer lovers like Concerned but not about punctuation, consider the following:

The PIKs are held in Red Football Joint Venture, a UK company. These are due to be repaid on Monday.
We don't know where RFJV are going to get the money to repay the PIKs because the glazers WONT tell us.

RFJV currently don't have any cash reserves so there are two options: (i) the glazers will inject equity into RFJV or (ii) RFJV will need to take out a new loan.

Until it is confirmed as FACT that (i) is what happened then all you pro-glazers out there need to STOP the triumphalism.

Tony said...

Anonymous,"why should a PRIVATELY OWNED company have to explain every business decision they make to the general public". The point is that it shouldn't be a privately owned company making business decisions. Football clubs are community assets and should be owned and controlled by the communities they serve. It's not just about public relations. It's about democracy and accountability.

Anonymous said...

Tony said "The point is that it shouldn't be a privately owned company making business decisions. Football clubs are community assets and should be owned and controlled by the communities they serve. It's not just about public relations. It's about democracy and accountability."

Tony I agree with your perception on how it should be, but this is the 21st century and top flight football is now a business and it will unfortunately stay that way because money talks. United sold its soul a long time ago (well before the Glazers), along with countless other clubs.

It is better supporters target the governing bodies. Attacking the Glazers is fruitless and in my opinion only further serves to destabilises the club and the team.

Best regards,

Greville.

Anonymous said...

David,

Fresh hay coming your way for the winter. But if you don't baaaaah and meeeeeeeh loudly enough the shepherd might miss you.

I look forward to the tasty mutton Anders shepherd will bring my way.

Baaaaaah Meeeeeeeeh

Anonymous said...

To the guy who keeps on saying 'Baaah' and 'Meeeh' you really are a prick, please do one onto red cafe and manutd.com where you can praise the gimps as much as you like

Anonymous said...

Tony, I second Greville's comments - accept the club is no longer a community asset and hasn't been since it went into private ownership. It's a private business and the costs of the Glazer's ownership are borne by the Glazers as owners. If they had the funds and not used debt to buy the club, the so called costs would be profit for them to take as owners. So the point about how much the owners have taken is crap.

For the fans, the ticket price is the going rate for a EPL match ticket and we are not even the most expensive. True, the plc may have charged less than they could, but if a business has this policy it's an act of benevolence, not a right of the fans or a duty on the club to buy tickets at less than what they could be sold for.

A lot of fans brag about our previous waiting list but I can't see why. A waiting list means the price is too low considering the number of people who want a ticket AND can afford one. It is not a sole measure of the strength of support of the club. Because of the superior capacity at OT, we easily outsell any other EPL club and that is just one of the reasons of why the club is so finacially strong.

And anon Jo, please show some respect to Andy. He has put a lot of effort in to give an informed insight into the finances of the club, albeit a biased anti Glazer one. I note the article about 70p in the pound is used to pay the cost of the Glazer's ownership is still on this blog, but that is crap, because equally crap, you can say that not a penny of the fans money goes to the debt as the staff costs are greater than matchday income. But by putting the issue in the open, he has invited debate and the truth will come out.

Just support the team - we are all real fans - the Glazers want what we want, for the team to be as successful as possible, albeit for different reasons.

andersred said...

@Anonymous at 19:11

Thanks for the kind words. I'm not going to take down any of the posts on here, it would be totally intellectually dishonest to do so.

I was too adamant about the PIKs, and I hold my hands up to that, but I suspect that the route they have gone down is not the one they were planning when the bond prospectus on 11th January.

I also think that IF they have refinanced the PIKs it probably delays dividends payments to pay it off rather than means it will never happen. It's a debate and one that is generally carried on sensibly here and elsewhere.

Anyway, support the team and I'd add, don't give up hope of ownership that doesn't put profit first, second and third in the list of priorities.

anders

ja said...

Anders, maybe your adamancy helped dissuade the Glazers from dipping their hands in the Ronaldo till as they had probably intended. I think rather than in one fell swoop, the Glazers will drip feed the dividends into effectively paying off the PIKs via whatever replacement vehicle they now have in place.
You have, at the very least, hit a nerve, as indicated by the vitriol and innuendo smears posted here. Keep it up. JA

Anonymous said...

Mr Green,What would Your Ideal Ownership Model Be,And Dont Come back and say Fan Ownership Because Mr Green that would Never Work,Now Mr Green its alright Holding your Hands up Hear But Do it Public through the Various Media Outlets you spoke too During the week.I have never seen so many people wanting the Owners and as a result the Club Fuck up and fall into decline as Much as You Lot.
Get Behind the Club and Cut all these One sided versions of the Facts that you have Posted in Recent Months

Tony said...

Greville, if it is right that United should be owned and controlled by the community that created it, then I don't see how that is invalidated by the fact that it is now the 21st century or that the Glazers were allowed to do a dodgy deal to "buy" United with debt. And while you have a touching faith in the power of money, I think you will find that the fans ultimately have greater power, the power to take their "custom" away if they so choose.

Anonymous, United may not rely only on matchday income, but would not be able to generate any income at all without the fans going through the gates. Thus, whatever legal fiction exists about the club being a private business and the Glazers being "owners", the reality is that the club is continually re-made by the fans and there would be no club without the fans turning up on a regular basis. The financial regime imposed on United by the Glazers, particularly the debt interest payments, IS therefore at the expense of the fans and everyone who loves Manchester United - including you. And the Glazers may think that they want United to be successful (who knows what they think, they don't exactly communicate do they?), but the regime that they have imposed works against it.

Anders is probably right that the Green and Gold campaign is holding the Glazers back from doing further damage. And the Glazers will be well aware that FC United and other supporter owned clubs provide a model in the real world of how things can be done differently. We all need to believe that, whatever the power of money, people can change things for the better if they are determined to do so.

A way in which we can do so immediately is by investing in FC United's community shares scheme. This will help to get FC to a ground of their own in Newton Heath and build up social capital for current and future generations. I would urge all to put whatever money they can into this scheme, which closes on 30th November. Details are on the FC website at http://www.fc-utd.co.uk/communityshares

MAKE IT SO!

Tony said...

Anders, could you do something on the finances of FC, the community shares scheme etc? It would be an interesting contrast and would give the scheme a big boost.
Tony Nuttall
tonynuttall@blueyonder.co.uk

Anonymous said...

To anon 16:40,

I am glad I am a prick in your view, because that really is the only view you got. Everything else you regurgitate from Anders. Point is Anders is running out of chowder day by day and I would like to see how long this anti-man utd scheme lasts. By the way, did the Red Knights even manage to bid?

Anonymous said...

Everything we say isn't regurgitated from Anders at all. The facts are there for all to see. The club is being financially torn apart by a family who have no affiliation to us and don't understand what Man Utd stands for, they aren't interested in football in any way, shape or form apart from being able to swell their own bank account.

Do you really think Joel or Avram or any of the other reptiles would know who Captain Marvel is or who was referred to as the King or in fact what happened to us in '74?

They wouldn't have a fucking clue. All they are interested in are the dollar signs. Now we all have no issues with business men who own large companies making lots of money out of them. However in this case we are much more than just a business and these people have come in and completely rode rough shod over us as supporters and disregarded the whole heritage, culture and history of us while at the same time thinking they can get away with totally destroying us financially and will then walk away with their own pockets full.

I don't think that they accounted for the level of passion we are showing against them what with the demonstrations and the green and gold campaign. We aren't fucking Tampa bay supporters. We can see through this whole charade and at least some of us are taking a stand and people like Anders are vital in this fight.

So to that bloke who is going on about baaah and meeeh and all those pricks who come on this excellent blog in defence of glazers, do yourself a favour and fuck off and go and spend your time in the mega store buying some merchandise in support of the gimps.

Hiding behind a computer spouting this shit. You glazer lot should make yourselves known at the next march. But you won't you cowards.

Darren said...

It's always telling I think that the Glazerites generallly speaking can't string a sentence together let alone put forward any coherant argument to back their views that the Glazers are fuckin great. Give us an alternative analysis to Anders/Bond/FT/swissrambler and every other financial reporter/analyst on the planet and then we'll have something to debate.

And it is ALWAYS the case that those who think that things such as ticket prices are not a problem, are those who don't go to games anyhow. Easy to say prices are fine when you don't pay them yourself. Easy to say that the complete breakdown of the relationship between United and it's community isn't a problem, when you were never part of that community anyway. Being a Manchester United supporter is so easy these days, all you have to do is type away on a keyboard.

As for all this PIK nonsese. NOTHING HAS CHANGED. Unless that debt has simply disappeared into thin air then it has been refinanced. And the dividend entitlements and cash carvout facilities remain in place for the Glazers to feed that new debt, or themselves (Bloomberg reported they were planning to take out £50m last week to buy some bonds for themselves). Whether that debt is in the Manchester United group, or hidden away in a company based in the Cayman Islands, it is still debt that the Glazers are likely to use Uniteds cash to service. If the PIK debt has been paid off, if the Glazers suddenly found last week £220m of money they previously didn't know they had, then they can tell us. I know I would if I was them. Also they can tell us that they wont take those cash carevouts and dividends now. So come on Malcolm, Joel et al, speak up.

Then, we can talk about the other debt. The bond debt of £530m. Which is only £30m less than the original total debt that the Glazers took out to buy the club. The debt which has so far cost the club £323m in interest payments and fees, or putting it another way 80% of the clubs profits. And that debt is going to cost the club another £315m over the next 7 years. Even before considering the PIK debt, or whatever new debt has replaced it, that amount of debt on a football club is unnaceptable. It's madness. Arsenal's debt is half that of United's bonds. They're paying half the finance charges compared to the United bonds. They got a brand-new shiny state-of-the-art stadium and all the extra revenues that stadium brings them. All we got, for twice the price, was the 'pleasure' of having the Glazers own us.

Anonymous said...

The Fan base has been Lied to Numerous Times By Mr Green and the Clowns from Must,They Lied about the Red Knights being the Best thing that could Ever happen(they Fucked off after 2months and only after people started to Dig for the Truth)and Now we told The Piks are Coming out of the Club and the responsibility of the Club which they arnt and Mr Green had access to Documents Proving that But to suit his Agenda he didnt.
I Hope the Fans like the Bitter man above Now move on and Get Behind the team again and Dont allow themselves to be Lead down the Wrong road again
LU
Ps Andy meet up for a pint Today,U owe alot of people one
An Ordinary Fan

Anonymous said...

And When Andy Green and Co admit that they Used the Fanbase for Months then we can talk.Did We ever have an Interview from the Red Knights to Explain what der plans are???No
We got one Interview with the Glazers back in 2005,But have we ever heard from Roman or Mansour?If the Glazers did come out and speak in detail you lot would still have a Problem with it.The club is secure both Now and in the Long Term,The Last thing we want is to do a Portsmouth on it,or worse let Fans who had der chance to Own the Club but missed the Boat own what is Like it or Not one of the Biggest Brands in the world

Anonymous said...

Andy this is a Yes or No Answer which i would very much like an answer too,The Record Loss that was reported in recent Weeks can that be reduced very quickly by taking away one off recordings on it?Heard talk it can in fact be turned around to a £25m profit.True?

Anonymous said...

Anon 10:31 and Darren,

With the stuff spewing out of you guys, you really make me wonder. You talk about heritage, where is your heritage when your government has done far worse to you and the generations to follow? Where are you as your liberties are being trodden on? Where are you when your country is bankrupt and your social pension as well? Where are you when the bailouts are being handed out left right center at the expense of economic and social improvements? Where are you when food/energy inflation is beginning to write off your ability to go to games? You keep spewing the nonsense about the Glazers this that and what ever other nonsense. You have far bigger battles to confront, but like the timid brat you are, you will focus on an argument which is worthless. Talking about debt, umm so your house today is worth more than the mortgage/equity on it? Guys keep baaaing and meeeeeehing. Anders has taken you all for a ride, a ride we tried to convince you sheep was wrong from the beginning. But you all wanted to be fooled and keep being fooled. Now we won't keep trying to bleed a stone, so why don't you wait on your next dose of nonsense from your shepherd, and then spew your BS with 10times the vocal strength. I laugh at all you fools and how you enjoy being fooled.

Learn a thing or two about finance, not what Anders tells you. If he was a financial genius he would have figured the multiple sources of financing and how corporate financing works. Poor dude only works as an analyst.

Anonymous said...

Hey Darren,

I can afford ticket prices and I don't think they are essentially expensive compared to many other things. I am not proGlazers but you are way off the mark with your comments. Any owner is free to run a business and withdraw sums as they deem fit. If your argument holds, then you and your missus must not be digging into your salaries to run your households? Did you borrow against your house? Were you one of those to used to home equity line of credit schemes?

Anonymous said...

Anon @11:47 Why don't you provide the numbers yourself to show this profit.
I seem to recall a fool like you called Patrick on this site. He always liked asking questions but NEVER provided anything of value.

jesper olsen on teh wing said...

With all the sock puppetry on this thread it makes me think that Anders must be doing something right!

Anonymous said...

As the Guy above said the Fan base was taken on a ride to Nowhere by anders and his crew,When they are asked Tough and Fair questions with regards to General finances they shout People down and Through all the "Your Pro Glazer" and what not.When You People Stop acting Like every word(View) that Andy posts is Gospel truth the Better,Stop acting like sheep when Your Shepard is wrong

Anonymous said...

Isn't ironic that those posters who provide no value and ask questions, are the same ones who say the Glazers dont't have to answer the questions put to them because they own a private company.

Hypocrites.

Patrick said...

Anonymous at 11:55:
". . .your government has done far worse to you . . . liberties being trampled on . . .your country is bankrupt . . . food/energy inflation . . . bailouts being handed out . . .You have far bigger battles to confront, but like the timid brat you are, you will focus on an argument which is worthless. . . I laugh at you fools"

So you're saying those issues exist nationwide, not just at O.T.?

You seem to be advising us to focus on those national problems rather than waste our time taking part in an argument about a football club.

I don't suppose there is any danger that you will take your own advice?

Anonymous said...

Ahh look its Patrick,

For your pleasure I do take my own advice, but what is your coherent argument?

Anonymous said...

Dont know why people worry It is not Fan club It is Glazer club They have every right to take Money away don’t need to Explain how pay back loans Depts of £500m are Nothing As long as they pay Wages that is all that Matters Why do people care about the Cup scheme Good way to get more Games Pay interest is good as Bank in big Trouble maybe Glazers take out More debt save economy Anders and must to blame All their fault They not care about Fans who afford to go Only those who cant Glazers need cash so don’t need fans dont Wanna pay Cheap tickets not answer Fans need pay More Gill say everything OK so why dont bad Fans go away

Anonymous said...

@anonymous 11:55.

Fuck off you American twat. What we are talking about here is our lifeblood, our football club. Where has all this talk about political issues come from ? This is a football forum.

So 'dude' take your americanisms and use them somewhere else.

Anonymous said...

Not American at all, thank you for your viewpoint.

Anonymous said...

Anon @ 10:31 20 Nov: The club financially torn apart? In what way? SAF doesn’t think so but for the sake of argument let’s accept they are not interested in the club other than for making money.

So what is worth more money? A successful team winning what we have been winning or one that lingers in mid table mediocrity? The best person to decide what the team needs in terms of player investment has been the most successful manager of the club for the last 24 years and he has said he is very happy with them. So who else has a better CV than SAF and can challenge him on what the team needs? If SAF was constrained in any way, I doubt he is the type to be shy about saying so.

You mean “passion” against the Glazers by the Green & Gold like the “How we kill him I don’t know”? That’s pure yob behavior bordering on the criminal. People like that are no different to the anarchists at the WTO gatherings and anyone who condones that sort of behavior is equally disgraceful. There’s a proper way to protest an issue without suggesting violence or physical injury. The die chants are yob bullying, pure and simple and I would rather these yobs not be associated with the club in any way. If they want to show how “well ‘ard” they are, maybe they should go Afghanistan.

Darren: I think you have a problem with distinguishing support for the Glazers with agreeing with the view they haven’t hurt the performance of the team. Just because I don’t agree with the anti-Glazer position, doesn’t mean I support them.
The problem with any analysis is that you use a set of facts and then “guess”. But if you don’t have all the facts, then your guess is likely to be flawed. One set of facts and figures can be interpreted differently by any number of analysts, take stock picks for example, all the analysts who cover a stock work from the same figures but you can easily have a full range of recommendations from buy to sell.

It’s a fairly poor general comment to say that fans who don’t mind the ticket prices don’t go to the games. That’s simply not true. There are many fans with local working class roots who have worked themselves into good careers and can afford the prices. And being a supporter is more than just being local. You want to see dedication? How about fans in Asia or Australia staying up until the early hours of the morning to watch the team play, sometimes in midweek and then having to go to work straight after? At the same time they easily spend more than the price of match ticket on drinks and traveling which help support the business subscription to cable television (around £2,000 per month per place, maybe more), the revenue of which goes towards the EPL that the clubs get. You want to try and tell me that is any less effort and support than a local fan going to OT?

The fans may support the club by supporting the team but the fans do not own the club. The fans had their chance to accumulate enough shares to block a private bid over a 14 year period it was plc, and more significantly 6 years from when SUAM was form but the fans didn’t do enough. So crying about spilt milk is just being bitter. The so called cost of the Glazers’ ownership is a cost to the Glazers and not directly of the fans. If you can’t accept that, then like many fans already have done, you can choose to be a non-paying fan.

David said...

I have been thinking it over and over why the Glazers would pay off the PIK's early without a fanfare of trumpets, I was speaking with a long time friend and fellow United supporter this morning and we both agreed on a similar conclusion.

SAF stating no intention to retire (great news), players contracts being renewed and tying down the likes of Vidic and Evra and even getting Wazza to resign (hopefully for the full length of the contract) and now paying off the PIK's.

But, why pay off the PIK's? why have they not touched the £95 Million available to them? very un-Glazer like


So I'm going to stick my neck out and state that I think you may see a "For Sale" sign outside OT come the new year, before you slate me and call for the white coat brigade, think about it!!!!!!!!!!

LUHG

Steve said...

Why does some clown keep using capital letters at the start of most words?

Anonymous said...

I wonder how most the yobs will act when they experience defeat after defeat in their nonsensical understandings?

andersred said...

Having been busy on (real and paid) work I appreciate I haven’t had a chance to reply to all the comments. Given the issue of the PIKs has been pretty thoroughly raked over in the last week I’ll just add a few points:

1. The Glazers not taking the £95m dividend is a GOOD THING.
2. Until it is clear where the money to repay the PIKs has come from, it seems a bit naive to assume £240m of debt has just vanished into thin air.
3. If new debt has replaced old, what could it be secured on? Until we know that, it is almost impossible to sound the all clear on this issue.
4. The dividend rights still exist and last seven years. If supporter pressure has caused them to deal with the PIKs in a different way, let’s keep pressure on them to retain cash in the club and not pay it out.

Specifically to “Concerned Fan”/”Ordinary Fan”, enough of the ridiculous accusations! Let’s have a pint at West Ham next week, we can each buy our own.....

anders

LSD_Eindhoven said...

Hi Anders
If we assume that the corporate structure above RF is without debt what then for corporation tax relief?

RF Ltd had cash corporation tax of about 5.5m in 2009 (8m in 2010) that receives full relief at the RFJV level.
What would be the impact of having a pikless RFJV? I think the picture is complicated by deferred tax assets.
Confusing business, this corporation tax! Clarity is welcome.

Anonymous said...

fodder for the sheeeeeeeep,

utd annouce deal with epson for office equipment!!! we surely now are broke....

ja said...

my next printer is definitely going to be a hewlett packard!

Anonymous said...

Was great to see Tony O'Niells son on the anti glazer march the other week.

Anonymous said...

Yep Ja, gotta be able to afford an Epson so as to purchase one. Guess you are priced out of that too...Dam MU pricing fans out of everything...baaaaah meeeeeeeh

ja said...

Well anonymous 07.32, your latest post exposes your grasp of facts to be as tenuous as your grasp on English grammar and spelling. In stark contrast to the Glazers at Old Trafford, Epson has reduced its prices by at least 50% in recent years, and regularly introduces new models, rather than coaxing more service out of superannuated ones.

Anonymous said...

Ohh Ja, after your excellent analysis you'll still be buying an HP. Wow, you are quite a bulb.

ja said...

Yes Anonymous 16.24. It is called having principles, which obviously you would not understand.

Anonymous said...

What are your principles exactly?

Anonymous said...

Ohhh crap Ingeland didn't win the bid for 2018. All coz of the f'in Glazers...

Anonymous said...

Ja....your principles exactly are....(take your time)?

ja said...

anonymous 18.35.
One of them is not to get in a pissing contest with a skunk.

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